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Traveller-digest    Thursday, December 23 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1568<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: 3I Sports<BR>
Re: England...<BR>
Re: Geographical idiocy (was re: perception of distance)<BR>
Re: Gone for the holidays, and 1yr anniversary<BR>
Re: Hiding education :was Geographical idiocy <BR>
Re: In Jokes<BR>
Re: In Jokes<BR>
Re: perception of distance<BR>
Re: SF Trav game<BR>
Re: SF Trav game<BR>
Re: SF Trav game<BR>
Re: SF Trav game<BR>
Re: 3I Sports<BR>
Re: Geographical idiocy (<BR>
Re: Hiding education :was Geographical idiocy <BR>
Re: New TML score keeping device<BR>
Re: In Jokes<BR>
Re: Geographical idiocy<BR>
Re: New TML score keeping device<BR>
Re: Hiding education :was Geographical idiocy<BR>
1650BC (was Re: United States)<BR>
Re:  OT-- North Pole Standoff with the ATF<BR>
Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
Re: Hiding education :was Geographical idiocy <BR>
Re: Terran polities<BR>
Re: 3I Sports<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:59:37 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: 3I Sports<BR>
<BR>
On 12/23/99 at 07:38 AM,  cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Sounds a lot like Rollerball, alright, but Rollerball itself was based on<BR>
>a short story called "Rollerball Murder", by William Harroson, first <BR>
>published in 1973;  Harrison also wrote the movie screenplay. As for<BR>
>cyberpunk, many point to John Brunner's "The Shockwave Rider" as the<BR>
>first cypberpunk book; like "Killerbowl", it was published in 1975, so<BR>
>which came first is a toss-up. :)<BR>
<BR>
Really?  "Shockwave Rider" as cyberpunk?  Hum....  I wouldn't have made<BR>
that connection, but I can see it.  <BR>
<BR>
You know, I don't think "Jagged Orbit", "Stand on Zanzibar" and "Shockwave<BR>
Rider" have ever gotten the credit they deserved.  I thought Brunner was a<BR>
genius.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:12:00 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: England...<BR>
<BR>
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
<BR>
>Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
>>I believe that most Germans (civilian and military) <BR>
>>died as a direct or indirect result of aerial <BR>
>>bombardment.  The USA bombed during the day,<BR>
<BR>
>  That should be wildly inaccurate, unless the losses<BR>
<BR>
>on the Eastern Front are largely attributed to being <BR>
>an "indirect result of aerial bombardment"; IIRC, <BR>
>most losses were in the army, and most of those were <BR>
>in the East. The strategic bombing offensive wasn't <BR>
>fun for anyone, but it very likely was not decisive* <BR>
>either.<BR>
<BR>
You may be right.  At least the figures probably exist<BR>
for the Second World War.  Did the German army or the<BR>
civilian population lose more people?  More civilians<BR>
died as a result of bombing, but more German soldiers<BR>
died from the usual variety causes in the Eastern<BR>
Front than anywhere else.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:28:34<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Geographical idiocy (was re: perception of distance)<BR>
<BR>
At 01:46 AM 12/23/1999 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>ISTR reading about a college in San Francisco testing its students on<BR>
>geography.  About half of the students, at a _San Francisco_ college,<BR>
>couldn't locate the Pacific Ocean on a map.  (Sorry, I don't have a<BR>
>cite.)<BR>
<BR>
Urban legend.  I'll bet my remaining teeth on it.<BR>
<BR>
>What?  Just because the NFC West division includes San Francisco<BR>
>(definitely West), St. Louis (well, Midwest anyway; besides they moved<BR>
>from Los Angeles), New Orleans (Gulf South, and, along with St. Louis,<BR>
>on the Mississippi River), Carolina (Charlotte, North Carolina), and<BR>
>Atlanta?<BR>
<BR>
I think west of the Mississippi would a good qualifier.  The current set up<BR>
is unfair to the Niners, who have to make transcontinental flights to play<BR>
division rivals.<BR>
<BR>
>Hey, the way teams move in the NFL, they would have to realign teams<BR>
>almost every year to keep them geographically close.<BR>
<BR>
Now don't you make fun of the Oakland, uh Los Angeles, oops Oakland Raiders!<BR>
<BR>
>Of course, the sports league in question could merely require any team<BR>
>that relocates to bear all extra travel costs caused by the relocation,<BR>
>with the proviso that all games are scheduled based on travel to the<BR>
>_original_ home world.<BR>
<BR>
In the ever delayed Lunion subsector, each world maintains it's own<BR>
Rollerball leagues, with a grand championship every three years called the<BR>
Strouden Cup Finals.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
We all enter the world in the same way: naked, screaming, soaked in blood.<BR>
But if you live your life right, that kind of thing doesn't have to stop<BR>
there.  <BR>
- -- Dana Gould <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:34:30<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gone for the holidays, and 1yr anniversary<BR>
<BR>
At 10:45 AM 12/23/1999 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>p.s.  Meant to have a TML Happy Holiday picture for everyone, but alas, I<BR>
>didn't have the time.  Think of Ditzie roasting chestnuts on an open fire<BR>
<BR>
The mental image that leaps to mind is Ditzie aiming one of FS' obscenities<BR>
at a pile of cowering chestnuts.<BR>
<BR>
Ditzie, of course, would be wearing a Santa hat.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse, Kiri and I have been thinking about doing t-shirts for the bayCon<BR>
party.. specifically, the Ditize with pistol shot.  Motto on shirt: The 2nd<BR>
Annual TML Roast K'kree Party.  Have Fun!  Or Else.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:38:12<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hiding education :was Geographical idiocy <BR>
<BR>
At 08:59 AM 12/23/1999 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>My kids learned the Animanics song listing the states & capitals.<BR>
>This was not their only source of education though.  :-)<BR>
<BR>
I know very few adults who can recite the alphabet without starting to sing<BR>
it.  Also, most of us who grew up watching Saturday morning cartoons in the<BR>
70's can sing most of the multiplication tables.<BR>
<BR>
Music is a wonderful way to learn, and it sticks things in your head.  For<BR>
example, Kirsten and I were horrified to discover that we both remember the<BR>
words to the Dukes of Hazzard theme.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
 http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:44:14<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: In Jokes<BR>
<BR>
At 12:12 AM 12/22/1999 -0900, you wrote:<BR>
>>ObObTrav: Does anyone else pepper their Traveller universes with all manner<BR>
>>of in-jokes that nobody will ever get?<BR>
<BR>
Well, in my group one that gets everybody rolling is "three black<BR>
minivans."  We once played in an atrocious champions campaign where one<BR>
adventure started with all the characters noticing three black mini vans<BR>
cruising down Haight St.  Moments later, there's a tremendous explosion,<BR>
and the vans race back by us.  so we take off after the vans.  That isn't<BR>
what the referee wanted us to do...<BR>
<BR>
I'm trying to get two in jokes into GF.. other than all of your names, of<BR>
course.<BR>
<BR>
The three suits of BattleDress are named after my Drill Sergeants.  And I'm<BR>
going to beg one of the artists to put A-7-1 and 12/84 in one of the<BR>
pictures somewhere, as that was my Infantry OSUT company and graduation date.<BR>
<BR>
If Craig is conscious out there, he can tell you about the Donkey.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:46:34<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: In Jokes<BR>
<BR>
At 12:55 PM 12/22/1999 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Either that, or it should be "Vargr 'can-can' kick."<BR>
><BR>
>La Folies Vargiere, anyone?<BR>
<BR>
I'm just tired enough that that was utterly hilarious.  Even though I<BR>
wasn't drinking anything, consider my keyboard splorted.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:58:23<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: perception of distance<BR>
<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
><BR>
>They didn't believe him when he mentioned how many<BR>
>thousands of miles these "day trips" would take.<BR>
>The biggest difference between an American and an <BR>
>Englishman: an American thinks a hundred years is a <BR>
>long time, an Englishman thinks a hundred miles is a<BR>
>long way.<BR>
<BR>
Every summer, I get people on the van who ask about a "day trip" to<BR>
Disneyland.  Dinsey is 400-odd miles from San Francisco.  They really can't<BR>
grasp the distances involved.<BR>
<BR>
The also don't understand that "Baywatch" is filmed in sunny Southern<BR>
California.  Or that summer is our coldest, foggiest season.  It's not<BR>
uncommon to drive by the cable car turn-arounds and see dozens of people in<BR>
t-shirts and shorts trying to stay warm.<BR>
<BR>
Why do you think we sell more sweatshirts than t-shirts to tourists?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"<BR>
- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:05:37<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SF Trav game<BR>
<BR>
At 12:39 AM 12/22/1999 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Don't forget the cheap cigars.<BR>
<BR>
hate to be a wet blanket, but those of us down to 80% lung capacity could<BR>
live without the smoke.<BR>
<BR>
We will have forty pounds of red and black M&Ms.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:09:44<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SF Trav game<BR>
<BR>
At 03:52 PM 12/21/1999 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Ah.  Where my Pub *used* to be until the Women's Building folk managed to<BR>
>> convict a bar of domestic abuse.<BR>
<BR>
>HUH????   Are you serious?  I thought the lease just wasn't renewed<BR>
>because they wanted to put in a child care instead.<BR>
<BR>
During the fight over the Dore Club, spokesfolk for the Women's Building<BR>
actually said that an Irish Pub "supported a culture of abuse" that<BR>
threatened to impede their ability to work with battered women.  That's<BR>
like saying that a gas station supports the drag racing culture.<BR>
<BR>
Bollocks.  The place was a major cop hangout.  Half the guys I pumped for<BR>
info on ACQ hung out there.  Hell, I ran playtests there!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:16:34<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SF Trav game<BR>
<BR>
I've created a list over at OneList for the suprising numbers of locals who<BR>
have popped up.  Now I know who's been buying all the good used stuff at<BR>
Gamescape!  We can use this to plan games, get togethers, and the 2nd<BR>
Annual TML K'kree Roast.<BR>
<BR>
Go to:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.onelist.com/community/TravellerinSF<BR>
<BR>
To sign up.  No welcome message yet.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:17:14<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SF Trav game<BR>
<BR>
>> Really?  Me too!  Where?  I live across from the Women's Building, you can<BR>
>> see all the murals from my living room window.<BR>
><BR>
>Ah, we walk by there regularly on our way to Bi-Rite for overpriced<BR>
>groceries. I live on Hill St, just off of Valencia between 21st and <BR>
>22nd. <BR>
<BR>
Y'know, I really hope all you locals take SuperShuttle to the airport...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:22:29 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: 3I Sports<BR>
<BR>
At 06:59 PM 12/23/99 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Really?  "Shockwave Rider" as cyberpunk?  Hum....  I wouldn't have made<BR>
>that connection, but I can see it.  <BR>
<BR>
        Vividly clear, I think...<BR>
<BR>
>You know, I don't think "Jagged Orbit", "Stand on Zanzibar" and "Shockwave<BR>
>Rider" have ever gotten the credit they deserved.  I thought Brunner was a<BR>
>genius.<BR>
<BR>
        Whole-hearted agreement...<BR>
<BR>
>Eris<BR>
>-- <BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	    NET-City Communications....<BR>
	         Providing "Solutions for the Common Company"<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:25:20 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Geographical idiocy (<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net><BR>
<BR>
>Its tough to teach kids geography, they hate it. <BR>
<BR>
Why?  My friends and I didn't hate it in grade school.<BR>
We all knew where France and Germany were and whose<BR>
dad had fought where in World War Two, and whose<BR>
family came from which Old Country.  <BR>
<BR>
>Plus, if California is anything like Texas, geography<BR>
<BR>
>in the sense of what is where is not stressed. We <BR>
[deletion]<BR>
>Its  History Concepts versus hard facts these days or<BR>
<BR>
>so everyone claims.<BR>
<BR>
That's nice, but concepts are totally meaningless in<BR>
the absence of factual underpinnings.  I think that's<BR>
true of just about everything.<BR>
<BR>
>Fact is, if you don't like it, go beat your school <BR>
>board with axehandles till they change it and if that<BR>
>doesn't work, get ahold of your state board of <BR>
>education. They respond much better to a good beating<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Well, my idea of a bo-ken and a loud kiai did help<BR>
isteve get through the day (and I think entitled me to<BR>
a splort sticker on my monitor).  Maybe I'll try it on<BR>
those boards (not too different from breaking a board,<BR>
as I did at my last hapkido test, I guess).  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 20:34:25 -0500<BR>
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hiding education :was Geographical idiocy <BR>
<BR>
"Just some good ole Droyns...Never mean any harm..."  <ducks><BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 1999 4:38 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Hiding education :was Geographical idiocy<BR>
> Music is a wonderful way to learn, and it sticks things in your head.  For<BR>
> example, Kirsten and I were horrified to discover that we both remember<BR>
the<BR>
> words to the Dukes of Hazzard theme.<BR>
> --<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas "Penguin" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:27:24 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: New TML score keeping device<BR>
<BR>
>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
<BR>
>October 1999, and tally up the keyboard kills, with <BR>
>both victims and credits.<BR>
<BR>
You're a saint.  We all look forward to it.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 12:31:08 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: In Jokes<BR>
<BR>
>ObObTrav: Does anyone else pepper their Traveller universes with all manner<BR>
>of in-jokes that nobody will ever get?<BR>
<BR>
    In my PbEM all my friends get cameos as NPCs, some of the guys get it<BR>
but a lot of the players think that the characters are too wierd to be good<BR>
NPCs.<BR>
    Jim.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 12:33:35 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Geographical idiocy<BR>
<BR>
>The Aussie one I heard was the Texan bragging about his 800-acre property,<BR>
and<BR>
>asking the Aussie how big his farm was:<BR>
>Central Aussie farmer: "One hundred..."<BR>
>Texan, interrupting: "Only one hundred?"<BR>
>Aussie farmer: ".. square miles".<BR>
>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
<BR>
    There's a cattle station in the Northern Territory thats actually bigger<BR>
than Texas. Everyone was really proud and we used to poke fun at Texans<BR>
until some Texans bought it.<BR>
    Australia, best country other people can buy.<BR>
    Jim.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:43:37 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: New TML score keeping device<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
> <BR>
> >October 1999, and tally up the keyboard kills, with<BR>
> >both victims and credits.<BR>
> <BR>
> You're a saint.  We all look forward to it.<BR>
<BR>
Why, thank you.  But how did you _know_ I was born on 01 November?<BR>
<BR>
It's taking me about an hour to review each week of posts, so far.<BR>
<BR>
(No, classes don't start again until 18 January 2000.  Why do you ask?)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:45:47 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Hiding education :was Geographical idiocy<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 08:59 AM 12/23/1999 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >My kids learned the Animanics song listing the states & capitals.<BR>
> >This was not their only source of education though.  :-)<BR>
> <BR>
> I know very few adults who can recite the alphabet without starting to sing<BR>
> it.<BR>
<BR>
You mean, people actually _sing_ "Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta..."?  No<BR>
doubt, they try to make it fit the tune of "C-130 rollin' down the<BR>
strip...."<BR>
<BR>
  Also, most of us who grew up watching Saturday morning cartoons in the<BR>
> 70's can sing most of the multiplication tables.<BR>
<BR>
My personal favorite was the Multiplication Rock for the number eight. <BR>
It ended with the line, "Place it on its side, and its a symbol meaning<BR>
'infinity.'"<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 20:56:11 +0000<BR>
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: 1650BC (was Re: United States)<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 23 Dec 1999, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>>> That was the *height* of the Assyrian Empire IIRC.<BR>
>><BR>
>> The Assyrian records don't start until 893BC.<BR>
Assur was the dominant city-state in the area around 1800BC. This "First<BR>
Assyrian Empire" was defeated by Hammurabi in about 1755, but Assur remained<BR>
independent, though weakened, and was still independent in 1650. The third and<BR>
best known Assyrian empire starts around 900.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>How about Sumeria?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Sumerian Empire was about 2100 to 2000, when Ur is sacked by the Elamites.<BR>
The dominant power in Mesopotamia from about 1595 (when Babylon<BR>
falls to the Hittites) to about 1157 are the Kassites.<BR>
<BR>
In 1650 you are looking at a fast-declining Babylon as the dominant power,<BR>
engaged in a series of skirmishes with the Kassites. The Babylonian king is<BR>
Abbi-ditana.<BR>
<BR>
>><BR>
>> For 1650 BC we have (a rough list):<BR>
>><BR>
>> Egyptians<BR>
Around 1650 is near the start (or in the middle, depending which dating system<BR>
you believe) of the Hyksos dynasty - conquering tribesmen from Palestine<BR>
overthrow the Middle Kingdom and take and rule Egypt till about 1580.<BR>
<BR>
>> Minoans<BR>
Late Middle Minoan period. Current theory places the Thera explosion in 1628.<BR>
<BR>
>> Myceneans<BR>
Mycenae is probably a tributary of Crete in 1650. Somewhere<BR>
between then and 1550 Mycenae starts to become more dominant, but Mycenae's<BR>
height is around 1300. <BR>
<BR>
>> Troy (I don't know which number)<BR>
VI. Troy was an ancient town, but not particularly important at this time.<BR>
<BR>
>> China<BR>
Shang China<BR>
<BR>
>> The Hebrews (they entered Egypt around this time)<BR>
... maybe with the Hyksos<BR>
<BR>
>> The final work at Stonehenge was done around now<BR>
>> I think the Hittites were around as well.<BR>
Labarnas I conquers Anatolia and dies around 1650. The<BR>
Hittite capital at Hattusas is founded by his son Labarnas II (aka Hattusilis)<BR>
about 1620. Hittite civilisation starts somewhere between those dates.<BR>
Hattusilis's son, Mursilis, sacks Babylon in about 1595, but does not occupy<BR>
it, leaving room for the Kassites.<BR>
<BR>
Others:<BR>
- - in Syria, the Hurrians/Mittanians (probably they're a little later, say 1550)<BR>
- - in Iran, the Kassites<BR>
- - in Palestine & the Levant, chaos<BR>
- - in Iraq, mainly Babylon, also Assur<BR>
- - in Southern Iraq - Isin (King in 1650 is Gulkishar) and Larsa (King in 1650<BR>
is Tashigurumash) <BR>
<BR>
YMMV on the dates - the ranges are about right but you may see other dates for<BR>
the start/end of eras, as much as 50 yrs apart.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Mark Watson, markw@antares.demon.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:41:45 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re:  OT-- North Pole Standoff with the ATF<BR>
<BR>
I'm sure the Russian Embassy has delivered a<BR>
sternly-worded statement to the State Department about<BR>
unscheduled military operations in strategic<BR>
international territory!<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:16:31 +0000<BR>
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 23 Dec 1999, Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
>From: Trevor, Peter <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>> Trivia:  There used to be a cop show called  (IIRC)  Night  Heat.<BR>
>> It was set in an unspecified  US  city  but  actually  filmed  in<BR>
>> Toronto.  To get the authentic US city look the film crew had  to<BR>
>> add extra litter to the outside scenes.  At one  time  they  were<BR>
>> doing a night shoot and stopped for lunch at 3am: while away  the<BR>
>> city cleaners wandered by, saw  all  the  litter,  and  dutifully<BR>
>> removed it  ...  the  continuity  problems  ment  they  lost  the<BR>
>> "mornings" work!<BR>
><BR>
>Yes, it was Night Heat, and it's such a great story.<BR>
<BR>
Peter Ustinov described Toronto as "What New York would be, if it was run by the<BR>
Swiss". Or something like that.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Mark Watson, markw@antares.demon.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:40:37 -0600<BR>
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Hiding education :was Geographical idiocy <BR>
<BR>
Those SchoolHouse Rock shorts are one of the most successful teaching tools<BR>
we have now. I made sure our history department has all the videos for how<BR>
laws become bills etc..<BR>
I even think the Math Dept uses the math ones :)<BR>
<BR>
Strange thing, we watched them on Saturday mornings, but kids<BR>
today depend on their teachers to buy them and show them at school.<BR>
What are we coming to?<BR>
<BR>
TV<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 02:51:02 +0100<BR>
From: Florian Merx <flow523@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran polities<BR>
<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
> >Wait a second there. The idea of a nation only came up in the 17th/18th in<BR>
> *western* Europe.<BR>
<BR>
> This is a rather eurocentric view, don't you think?<BR>
<BR>
Yes, isn't it refreshing? ;)<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, I know too little about Chinese and Japanese culture to make a<BR>
good argument here. Nonetheless, my point was to show that the notion of<BR>
a nation is in (again) *western Europe* a relatively recent one. The<BR>
idea of using Egypt in a comparison running over several thousand years<BR>
of human history is a wee bit off, methinks. <BR>
<BR>
I do not want to diminish the accomplishments of Chinese bureaucrats<BR>
over their several thousand years worth of history. Nonetheless, forgive<BR>
to use Europe as an example, it is the turf I know. ;)<BR>
Which brings me to a question: Tracing your lineage is good and well - I<BR>
know German families that can trace their lineage to a few hundred years<BR>
before the founding of German state - but how old is the term 'nation'<BR>
in Chinese?<BR>
Did it exist per se, or did it need some special incentive to give the<BR>
Chinese an identity as Chinese? (Special incentive= a government bent on<BR>
seperating its citizens from all others - or, in the case of Germany,<BR>
some students wanting a unified state or some other I don't think of...)<BR>
<BR>
> Kiri  =)<BR>
<BR>
That is one h**l of a name. Do you mind if use it for a NPC? =)<BR>
<BR>
Flow<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:32:40 -0600<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: Re: 3I Sports<BR>
<BR>
At 02:47 AM 12/23/99 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>On 12/23/99 at 03:40 AM,  "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> said:<BR>
><BR>
>>From: <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>>> Okay, I'm weird, but I liked "The Gumball Rally" better than "Death<BR>
>>>Race 2000" and the "Magnificent Men..." movies even more than<BR>
>>>that. So sue me, but I like comedy.<BR>
><BR>
>>Well, I wasn't making any quality judgements.<BR>
><BR>
>>On the other hand, I find it difficult to classify Death Race 2000 as<BR>
>>anything but a comedy.<BR>
><BR>
>That's true, but it doesn't count if it wasn't *intended* to be a comedy.<BR>
><g><BR>
><BR>
>Eris<BR>
<BR>
Please. Everyone knows Roger Corman was the only person willing to make a<BR>
documentry revealing the truth about conditions on America's roads and<BR>
highways. The fact it is now regarded as some sort of joke only shows that<BR>
there is a consp.....<BR>
<BR>
<no connection><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Please ignore the previous message. Return to your daily routine. That is all.<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1568<BR>
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